has anyone ever reverse engineered one of these things?
just what the heck is it?
Li'l Izzy
Moderator: Dave Mudgett
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Keith Hilton
- Posts: 3787
- Joined: 1 May 1999 12:01 am
- Location: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Dave, I have a friend who has one he bought years ago. No one really ever knew what was inside, because the builder poured potting compound on the electronics. Electronic potting compound is a two part epoxy designed to harden permanently. The electronics were forever sealed in a rock hard material, I suppose to keep thiefs out and form a poor man's patient. The problem is that nothing could ever be repaired.
Here is my opinion: The device is a pre-amp, probably built around a couple of early 60's transistors. There are literally thousands of ways resistors and capacitors can be combined with transistors in a pre-amp design. It is basically the same concept that is in the Goodrich pre-amps you see hung on the legs of steel guitars. In the early 60's transistor designs tended to be of discrete individual transistors. The big problem with these designs was distortion and trimming ,which was sometimes very difficult to get perfect. Remember how noisy the early 1960's transistor radios were? Then along came chips--integrated circuits. The 8 pin chip in my Digital Sustain is smaller than a dime and contains 127 transistors. The distortion is virtually ZERO and it is FACTORY trimmed by the people who make the chip. A lot of wonderful things have happened in electronics since 1960. That was 40 years ago!
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Here is my opinion: The device is a pre-amp, probably built around a couple of early 60's transistors. There are literally thousands of ways resistors and capacitors can be combined with transistors in a pre-amp design. It is basically the same concept that is in the Goodrich pre-amps you see hung on the legs of steel guitars. In the early 60's transistor designs tended to be of discrete individual transistors. The big problem with these designs was distortion and trimming ,which was sometimes very difficult to get perfect. Remember how noisy the early 1960's transistor radios were? Then along came chips--integrated circuits. The 8 pin chip in my Digital Sustain is smaller than a dime and contains 127 transistors. The distortion is virtually ZERO and it is FACTORY trimmed by the people who make the chip. A lot of wonderful things have happened in electronics since 1960. That was 40 years ago!
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Jack Stoner
- Posts: 22147
- Joined: 3 Dec 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Kansas City, MO
The Lil Izzy was an op-amp device. I had one and tried to figure out what was in it. It had a DIP Op-Amp, but that's all I could find out. The potting took care of figuring out what was in it and for repairing it.
Goodrich (and John Lemay), will obliterate the device types so they can't be copied. I haven't checked any of the resistors in a Goodrich device to see if they have been recoded. However most companies are not paranoid about someone ripping them off and leave the ID markings on parts and even provide schematics. Although obliterating the number on a part, or painting the chip so the numbers can't be accessed, protects the companies it leaves legitimate service personnel out in the dark.
Goodrich (and John Lemay), will obliterate the device types so they can't be copied. I haven't checked any of the resistors in a Goodrich device to see if they have been recoded. However most companies are not paranoid about someone ripping them off and leave the ID markings on parts and even provide schematics. Although obliterating the number on a part, or painting the chip so the numbers can't be accessed, protects the companies it leaves legitimate service personnel out in the dark.
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Keith Hilton
- Posts: 3787
- Joined: 1 May 1999 12:01 am
- Location: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
Jack, I don't try and hide anything, but I still remember something that happened. Back when I was trying to invent my Digital Sustain, Doug Jernigan was testing my ideas in Nashville. When I got the right combination, and Doug played it on the OPRY, many musicians noticed the difference. The OPRY musicians asked Doug what he was using. One musician said,"Let me borrow it, and I will go to Radio Shack ,get some parts and make one!"
I know who the guy was, but there is no need to mention his name. People like John LeMay,Goodrich, Hartley Peavey and Keith Hilton spend years developing something. It boils down to a lot of work, and a lot of time. When I was inventing my infrared pedal, I had a $40.00 a day parts habit. What I mean is that I used up about $40.00 a day in electronic parts just experimenting. This went on for over 2 years. So, it is not a good feeling when someone comes in and simply copies your sweat, blood, tears and invested money. I doubt that a patient could be obtained on simple arrangements of resistors, capacitors, and other parts in a OP Amp design. Even if it could, would the $10,000 cost of a patient be worth it? Even if you sold everyone who owned a pedal steel guitar one of the devices, you might never recover your patient cost. Besides, a patient is worthless unless you are willing to defend it in court. This also costs a lot of money.
I made the decision, early on, to leave everything out in the open. Nothing is hidden in any of my products. The benefit to this is that you, or someone else, can repair the device. I chose to spend the money and get a patient on my infrared pedal. I look forward to defending that patient, no matter what the legal cost.
Locks are only for honest people. The manufacturers who remove part numbers, paint over part numbers, or seal parts in epoxy, are only preventing honest people from stealing their product design. For a real thief, it is very easy to figure out what parts have been used and in what arrangement.
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<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 04 July 2000 at 10:16 AM.]</p></FONT>
I know who the guy was, but there is no need to mention his name. People like John LeMay,Goodrich, Hartley Peavey and Keith Hilton spend years developing something. It boils down to a lot of work, and a lot of time. When I was inventing my infrared pedal, I had a $40.00 a day parts habit. What I mean is that I used up about $40.00 a day in electronic parts just experimenting. This went on for over 2 years. So, it is not a good feeling when someone comes in and simply copies your sweat, blood, tears and invested money. I doubt that a patient could be obtained on simple arrangements of resistors, capacitors, and other parts in a OP Amp design. Even if it could, would the $10,000 cost of a patient be worth it? Even if you sold everyone who owned a pedal steel guitar one of the devices, you might never recover your patient cost. Besides, a patient is worthless unless you are willing to defend it in court. This also costs a lot of money.
I made the decision, early on, to leave everything out in the open. Nothing is hidden in any of my products. The benefit to this is that you, or someone else, can repair the device. I chose to spend the money and get a patient on my infrared pedal. I look forward to defending that patient, no matter what the legal cost.
Locks are only for honest people. The manufacturers who remove part numbers, paint over part numbers, or seal parts in epoxy, are only preventing honest people from stealing their product design. For a real thief, it is very easy to figure out what parts have been used and in what arrangement.
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<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 04 July 2000 at 10:16 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Jack Stoner
- Posts: 22147
- Joined: 3 Dec 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Kansas City, MO
Keith (and whoever else reads this), any company has to protect their design or their out of business. I really don't have a problem with that. The problem is the unrepairable or only repairable by the manufacturer type devices that have to be shipped away (and many have a very slow turnaround time).
No matter how well designed and failsafe a device is, there are failures. If nothing ever failed, manufacturers would not have to have warranties or "authorized repair centers", etc.
No matter how well designed and failsafe a device is, there are failures. If nothing ever failed, manufacturers would not have to have warranties or "authorized repair centers", etc.
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George McLellan
- Posts: 2543
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Duluth, MN USA
Some time back, I forget what year, Lil' Izzy was being sold at the ISGC for $50.00 (I didn't know that they were going out of bussiness and it was a clearance sale at the time).
I was really new to steel and asked the (very beautiful) lady that was selling them what they were and did. She told me it would improve the tone and aid in producing a clean sound. It did neither, or at least the one I bought didn't. I still have it somewhere around here in a junk drawer. I chalk that one up to my own ignorance in electronics.
BTW....Keith, I am using the volume control you made for me all the time and love it. I hope you are marketing them and doing well with it.
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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo
I was really new to steel and asked the (very beautiful) lady that was selling them what they were and did. She told me it would improve the tone and aid in producing a clean sound. It did neither, or at least the one I bought didn't. I still have it somewhere around here in a junk drawer. I chalk that one up to my own ignorance in electronics.
BTW....Keith, I am using the volume control you made for me all the time and love it. I hope you are marketing them and doing well with it.
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SUAS U' PHIOB
Geo
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Steve Allison
- Posts: 541
- Joined: 29 Sep 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Eatonton,Ga. U.S.A.
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Ernie Renn
- Posts: 3491
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
Gee, Steve...ask him what he put inside the Izzy's.
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My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com
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My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com